Podcast Episode #17 A meaningful career in Public Relations, an interview with PR specialist Katie Maynes

In this episode, Leah Lambart interviews Public Relations (PR) specialist Katie Maynes about her very interesting career working for high profile brands including Australia Zoo, Ovarian Cancer Research Foundation, St Vincent’s Institute of Medical Research, Lilly & Lime, World Vision, Asylum Seeker Resource Centre,  Cat Protection Society as well as multiple award-winning events agency Event Head.

In this episode, Leah and Katie discussed:

• What exactly is Public Relations 
• How she first became interested in PR
• What sort of content is covered in a PR curriculum
• What are some typical entry-level roles for students after completing a degree in PR
• The difference between working in a PR agency versus an in-house PR role
• A typical day working in a PR agency
• The skills and attributes required to be successful in an agency environment
• Some key highlights in Katie’s career
• Her decision to leave corporate to work in a not-for-profit (NFP) environment
• The differences in corporate versus NFP from a PR perspective
• About Katie’s consulting and coaching business

If you are interested in connecting with Katie or to find out about The PR Masterclass, then you can find her at the links below:

Facebook:  @KatieMaynes

Instagram:  @katiemaynes

Website:      Katie Maynes PR

Podcast:     Business Between Bells

Transcript

Leah Lambart 0:02
Welcome to the Relaunch Your Career podcast. I’m your host Leah Lambart, Career and Interview Coach, and founder of Relaunch Me, where we help you find the work that you were meant to do. Today I have Katie Maynes on the podcast to talk to you about building a career in PR. Katie is a PR specialist and a Visibility and Storytelling Coach with 20 years of experience working in a range of PR roles in Melbourne, London and Queensland. She now has her own business Katie Maynes PR, where she helps international charities with their PR as well as providing spotlight shy entrepreneurs with the tools and confidence to share their stories. Earlier this year I met Katie when I completed her PR classroom course and I can vouch for her experience, vast PR knowledge and her ability to inspire others to get their story out there. Welcome to the podcast. Katie. It’s great to have you here.

Katie Maynes 1:09
Oh, thank you, Leah. It’s so great to be here.

Leah Lambart 1:12
So Katie, I’ve been really looking forward to having you on the podcast. But before I interview you about your own career story. Can you explain to those who may not know what exactly is public relations or PR?

Katie Maynes 1:28
Yes, great question and one that I’m asked all the time. So PR or public relations, it’s actually funny because it has changed a lot since I graduated from uni over 20 years ago, but the definition still stands. And that is, that it is the effective communication between an organisation and its public. So it’s all of the storytelling and the way that you spread your messages to your public.

Leah Lambart 1:52
So Katie, after school, you went straight to University at RMIT and studied a Bachelor of Arts with a public relations major How did you first become interested in PR? How did you even know about that course?

Katie Maynes 2:05
Yeah, well, it’s funny because I didn’t know what PR was. I’d never ever heard of PR up until year 10 and I was at my school careers night and I remember I just saw a woman WHO was sitting there and she had PR/ public relations written at the front of the desk. I sat down and she started telling me about what she did and I just loved the sound of it. My oldest sister did marketing so I had an understanding of marketing and her couse, and I thought that is sort of what I wanted to do, but I didn’t want to copy her. Then at the career night I heard about PR ansd well, that’s a little bit different and that’s not copying her. That’s perfect and I just loved the sound of it. It just sounded really interesting. And yeah, the lady that I was speaking to worked for an agency and she had all these different clients and she’s talking about sort of the ‘day in the life’ and how she would be at a photo shoot, and then she would be interviewing someone and I just thought it sounded super interesting and would sort of fit my skillset.

Leah Lambart 3:10
Okay, great. So then you went to RMIT and studied the course. What sort of content do you actually study in that course?

Katie Maynes 3:17
Yeah, that’s a good question, too. The course still exists today xxcept I think it’s more part of the business school now more than arts, which I think is a really great fit. It’s probably very different now to what it was then, because I can still remember then, we had a particular class, which was all about the internet and doing Google searches and things like that. Which is just hilarious now you think about it. I can still remember one of my classmates telling me about this amazing search engine called Google. So yeah, okay, that shows my age. It didn’t have a huge digital focus back then.It did have a writing focus and writing is something that is a huge part of PR. PR works very closely with journalism so that particular course was run concurrently with a journalism course in the media studies course at RMIT. So we did a lot of overlapping subjects with the journalism students. A lot of the journalism students went on to do PR, and vice versa. So there was a huge crossover. So lots of writing Media Studies, because media relations is a big component of PR, international studies, politics, although they were sort of, I think, more electives, so you could kind of choose what you wanted to specialise in. I love that PR is so broad and across a range of different industries, but you really do have to be interested in the media and know what’s going on and current affair and politics. And then there was a risk management based classe as well, because that’s another component of PR which is crisis communications. This is sort of helping, obviously, an organization or a brand get out of hot water and if they’re in the media for the wrong reasons, helping them to convey the right messages and get out of the situation that they’re in. So there were classes around that. And then events was another part of it too, because events is a component of PR. Once again, I think that was more sort of elective based. But yeah, I’ve definitely always come across events in any role that I’ve had in PR, so that was really useful. So I think that they were really the main ones and then there were sort of very straight, generic sort of PR courses and PR campaigns and how actually to run different campaigns as well. But yeah, it was a very good course at the time, it was pretty tricky to get into not because of the ATAR but because there was an entrance exam and also an interview. And they only took a certain amount of students. The exam was very much around current affairs again, which I think is really important to have a grasp on if you’re sort of going into this area. It was a really good course and in three years, I certainly learned a lot. In the final year I was pretty much working in a full time job and doing the course alongside it so it gave you the scope to do that as well, which was good.

Leah Lambart 6:52
Fantastic. What are some examples of the types of entry level roles that someone would go into after completing the course?

Katie Maynes 7:08
Yes, so there are different entry level roles. If you were to work for a PR agency, it would be sort of an executive, PR executive role or coordinator role. So assisting PR managers you will get a lot of experience because you are to a whole range of different things. I know for me, I was working for a PR agency in my third year of uni and I was at that stage helping the PR manager to do media calls so I was on the phone already doing media. It could be a straight PR Coordinator role, you could get an events role or you could get a fundraising events role for a charity or not for profit. Lots of councils and governments have PR roles as well, that you can get into out of uni which might be more writing based. So there’s lots and lots of scope. And now of course, the digital side. So digital media, I think that you can’t do a PR role now without the digital side and that’s going to become more and more apparent as we go on. So yeah, lots and lots of different opportunities.

Leah Lambart 8:39
So when you say digital media, what sort of software would someone need to be across if they were going to work in PR now?

Katie Maynes 8:49
Good question, really just the basic social platforms like Instagram and Facebook as well as EDM software systems like MailChimp. And then obviously, it just depends on what role you’re in, like, you might find that you might be in a role that requires a lot of social or digital media based role, and then if it’s kind of a visual based role, then they may want you to have photographic skills. There is also the digital graphic design side as well, you may find that you have to design things, but you might be able to do that in Canva and not have to sort of upskill. It just depends but you’ll probably find that you’ll learn all of those things on the job. I know that it was on the job where a lot of those skills came into play. And I presume that’s still the case.

Leah Lambart 10:06
So it seems to me that after completing uni students tend to go either to a PR agency or to an in house role. Can you just explain to our listeners what the difference is between working for a PR agency as opposed to working within a corporate or in house with a not for profit?

Katie Maynes 10:32
PR agencies basically have a range of different clients. So you’re going there and their main sort of function is to work with these different clients and specialize in PR. So they might have really big clients like BP and clients like that and they’re just using the agency for their PR function. So in an agency, you will get an amazing experience with working across probably a range of different things and clients. You’ll learn how the media and how storytelling works and those different industries. And you’ll also have some amazing mentors who will be working just in PR. So that is one big difference for agency. And then when you’re working inhouse, you’ll find that depending on how large the organization is, you will either be sitting within a PR team, but a lot of the time, you might just be the PR person on your own within a marketing team or within a fundraising team. So you’re the one bringing the PR expertise to the table. And you may even be working with an agency to help you as well if you’re in an in house role. So those are the major differences. And there’s pros and cons to both and I think that it’s great to get experience across both, especially when you’re starting out.

Leah Lambart 11:53
Are you able to share what a typical day might look like working in a PR agency?

Katie Maynes 11:59
Yes. So it was a long time ago now. I guess I have an agency myself now, but it’s funny I don’t really think of it like that. But yeah, when I worked in an agency, I’d laugh actually with PR friends about how diverse your days can be like one minute you can be sitting there having a beautiful lunch, long lunch with a client and the next day you’re carrying massive boxes across for photo shoot, like it’s just so different, diverse. But I’ll give you an example. I worked for an agency in London, which was really fun. And it was a consumer base sort of agency. We had lots of food based clients, which wasn’t great for me at the time, Ben and Jerry’s ice cream tub that sat right next to be and Stolich alcohol. And, yeah, it was lots of fun for that time of my life. Now, this was in 2004/2005, but we would actually all sit down and go through all the newspapers together, which I loved doing. And obviously in London, there was lots of newspapers. So it was quite a fun thing to do and we would go through to see if our clients were in the papers and to see what the media were reporting on. You would of course do it differently now, but it was about getting a real grasp for what the media were talking about at that time. What were the topics? So then we would almost have a brainstorming session whilst we were in there going “Oh, how about we do this for this client”. And I loved that we did that. It was our founder who made sure that we made time for that every day and I think that was such a great thing to do. And then we would go and we would all have different accounts that we managed. There’s usually a lot of meetings with both your clients and in your team, so often you would have a team within the agency working together for a client. And so you would have like a PR manager or PR executive and then possibly a PR director depending on how large the client is. So you get together and work out what you’re doing for the client and a particular campaign at that time. Yeah, you would be sort of in the trenches working on it. So that would be writing media releases doing media calls. Yeah, that was sort of the main part of that role. Now I think that role would have a larger digital focus. So you’d be sort of, you know, on the social platforms as well communicating storytelling. From a PR manager perspective, usually the PR managers and director would be going out and pitching to new clients which I hated. It was like a job interview. And you’d have to go and basically present and you would put together this pitch. So you’d put together some campaign ideas for the client, then you have to get up and pitch why you’re a good fit. So yeah, there was a lot of that. We also did lots of events and long lunches which probably don’t really happen anymore. Well, so yes, so diverse and different. That gives you a big taste of what we would be doing every day. But yeah, that’s the thing I love about PR. It’s never boring. It’s always interesting. There’s always different things to do.

Leah Lambart 15:46
From what you’re telling me, it sounds like an agency environment is very fast paced, and it sounds like you do have to be putting yourself out there, calling journalists, doing pitches, going to events. Would you say that the agency environment is a better fit perhaps for an extrovert than an introvert or do you think it doesn’t matter?

Katie Maynes 16:06
Oh, great question. Yes, so I’m an introvert. Let’s say a ‘people loving introvert’. But I found that hard sometimes because I would often be at uni thinking oh my gosh, there’s just so many loud people and I am so quiet. But when I say I’m an introvert, I do like speaking and I do like being on the phone. I don’t mind doing presentations (as much as they made me nervous). At school I did debating and things like that, like I don’t mind that sort of thing. So, I don’t think it matters if you’re an introvert and an extrovert. and I think both bring different things to the table. I have worked with introvert colleagues who are just incredible writers and just like to put the head down and do the writing side and the strategy and planning side and then have the extrovert colleagues who preper to do the relationship building and client fun fronting kind of work. So I think there’s a side of PR for everyone.

I don’t think you need to pigeonhole yourself and say ‘Well, I’m an introvert, I’m not going to be interested in that’. I think that you can be both. I do think that maybe within an agency, when it comes to relationship building and networking and things like that then there is definitely a place for extroverts. Looking back, agency was very fast paced, a lot of travel and events. So it was probably little wonder that I was tired, but I look back and think I was probably really tired because of all the networking and all of that which I didn’t always love. So yeah, there’s definitely a place for extroverts for sure, but I think that you can find a role that suits you.

Leah Lambart 18:09
It sounds like it was probably a great experience for you and great for your confidence and to learn to put yourself out there, but often for introverts, it’s something they can learn to do really well, but it can be draining if you’re doing it day in and day out, and don’t get that time to yourself and to work at a steady pace.

Katie Maynes 18:28
Absolutely. Absolutely. And you know, if you’d asked me in my 20s if I was an introvert or an extrovert, I probably would have said extrovert because I was trying so hard to fit into that role, which I don’t necessarily think is a great thing. But you know, that experience did help me build my confidence and learn to put myself out there.

Leah Lambart 18:58
Now, after you worked in an agency you worked inhouse for a number of very well known brands including Village Roadshow, Australia Zoo, Yarra Trams, World Vision and the St Vincent’s Institute of Medical Research. Can you talk us through some of these experience and some of the key highlights in your PR career?

Katie Maynes 19:23
Yeah, starting my career at Village Roadshow was quite surreal now I think about it, and it’s so funny how I got that job. It was through the Yellow Pages. When I was at uni, we had to do an internship and it wasn’t a long internship. I think it was only six weeks or something. It was over the summer break. And I had been working for an agency and I knew that they’d often spoken about a contact or someone that had worked at Village Roadshow and I thought ‘I’d love to do that’. So I just got out the Yellow Pages.

Leah Lambart 20:08
You might have to explain to some people what the Yellow Pages actually is Katie.

Katie Maynes 20:14
So I looked up the directory of film distribution companies and I must have called them to find out who the contacts were and then wrote them letters.

And yeah, luckily someone wrote back to me and said ‘Yeah, you can come on board and be an intern!’ It was just so funny how it all happened. Anyway, so I went to work as an intern, it was just so surreal. Like I think we were working on the film premiere for ‘Swordfish’ a really old film with High Jackman. And I thought ‘Oh my gosh, this is amazing!’ But it was also funny because I was driving this 1980s Corolla, you know, living with my mom and dad and seeing how the other half lived. It was a great role but there’s no way I could do it now. It was very fast paced, lots of travel and really, really long hours. But it was fun and it exposed me to a lot both personally and professionally and was a great place to start. And then I moved to London and worked for the agency and then when I got back I worked for another agency and then for Australia Zoo and that was really fun. Australia Zoo I still love and since I started my business I’ve been in touch with a lot of my colleagues from there. And a lot of them have gone into sort of entrepreneurial and business roles, which is really great. I think it was just because it was such a great platform for us to see that anything was possible and that you can do all of these amazing things. We were all quite young and in these big roles so we quickly learnt on the job what we had to do. So I ended up as the PR manager there and had this team and yeah, I was quite young and I really was learning on the job. Looking back I wasn’t a very good leader. I was friends with a lot of the people that I was managing which is never ideal when you’re trying to lead a team and so there was lots to learn in that role. But that was good. But it was difficult because when I started it was only a few months after Steve Irwin died. And so there was so much media interest. And as well as that all of the management at the zoo was Steve’s family. So they were all grieving that year, and, you know, but the business had to keep running. So, yes, looking back, it was a really interesting time to be there. But yeah, it was fun. You know, you got to do these really interesting things like cuddle tiger cubs in your lunch break and things like that.

When I moved back to Melbourne I went into a much more corporate role. So it was a massive change from wearing khaki every day to working for Yarra Trams and public transport. But that was another really great experience in that role, because that really exposed me to the crisis management side as well. Also, you know, lots of radio interviews and I had an amazing mentor. There. Colin Tyrus had worked in radio for years and years. So he taught me a lot. So yeah, that was really interesting. Then after that, I decided that I wanted to go into a not for profit role.

Leah Lambart 24:27
I noticed that you’ve worked really with not for profits ever since. So was that a conscious decision that you wanted to work for an organization that was perhaps more aligned to values. Can you talk us through that?

Katie Maynes 24:40
Yeah, definitely. As much as I love PR, I sort of had this feeling like I wasn’t doing enough. I always had these questions popping up I thought that the natural progression would be to look for charity and not for profit roles. I actually found it hard to get into charity and not for profit because the roles that I was going for they would always ask ‘Have you had not for profit experience?’ and at that stage I hadn’t except that when I worked at Australia Zoo, they had sort of a charity or a foundation called the wildlife warriors. So I had done a fair bit of work for that, but not specifically, I’d really worked for the zoo. So until I startedat World Vision I went for a few roles, and I did find it hard getting that first role in not-for-profit. And looking back, I think charities are missing out on good people but at the same time I think you need to understand how a charity works. Now I have worked with a lot I know that they do work differently to the corporate world, but you bring so much experience and expertise regardless of where you’ve come from, and you can apply that to working for a charity. So yeah, so I don’t know if that’s changed, but I did find that hard. But yeah, it was definitely in line with my values and just felt I wanted to be doing a bit more. Even though there was nothing wrong with the other jobs that I was doing. I just had this sort of feeling that that’s what I wanted to do.

Leah Lambart 26:16
Well, it’s interesting that you say that because it is still difficult for people to make that jump. And often I think people feel that they can just move into NFP, but that problem you had comes up time and time again. So particularly if you’re applying for jobs in that field, they like to see that you are committed to helping people and giving back and so it’s often advising people to perhaps do some volunteer work and so that you’ve got that on your resume or or in your LinkedIn Yeah, so that they can see that you are driven to give back and contribute to society.

Katie Maynes 26:53
That’s such a great idea. My sister actually did that. So she’s following my path now. She worked for years and years in marketing and then wanted to go over to not for profit. So she did a fair bit of volunteer work and that really helped her get across. So yeah, I agree. I think that is a good place or good thing to do. And there are lots of opportunities to be able to do that.

Leah Lambart 27:22
I just wanted to go back. You mentioned before that there are some key differences between corporate and not for profit. Are you able to give us your perspective on what some of those differences might be? Not, not necessarily from a PR perspective, but just in general?

Katie Maynes 27:39
Yeah. So I would say that the corporate world is obviously much more profit focused. And then the not for profit charity work world is fundraising focused. There are similarities with that because you’re really I guess, you’re looking at the consumer, you’re focused on the consumer, or you’re focused on the donor. Now, there’s obviously a lot more involved than that. But from a communication perspective, that’s a way that you could look at it. So what you’re going to find is that there’s a range of different differences. So one is that you might find that the corporate environment, and this is quite generalized, but it might be more systematic. You know, there’s lots of processes in place, you might also find that there might be more budget around so you’ll find potentially with not for profit and fundraising that that’s often something that can be a bit of a challenge that the budget is so much lower in NFP than corporate. When I worked in agency we had corporate clients and massive events and often the budget wasn’t too much of an issue. Whereas all of a sudden, when I moved over to say World Vision and I would look at the event budget and think, ‘that’s like just the catering budget of this other event I worked on, how am I going to do that?’ And you know, it makes perfect sense because you’ve got to be very aware of the bottom line with every dollar that is spent in charities coming from donors. So it has to be well spent and you need to be making sure you get return on investment in that and yet at the same can be said for corporate but it is different. So the other thing that is a big difference, I would say with charity and not for profit, is that you will come across some really, really passionate people. And that’s not to say you won’t come across that in corporate, but you know, people who are working in fields that they have worked in all their lives and they would die for that thing. And working in PR and comms I’ve worked with lots of charity so I almost feel like I have to sort of become passionate about all these different things, and then I’m working with these people who are just so passionate. It just means that there can be challenges around that. Because if someone is really, really focused and passionate about something, it is sometimes hard to get certain ideas across, or get your point across, because they might be so focused on that thing, whereas you might not get that so much in corporate. So that’s another big difference that I see. And it just depends as well on the size of the charity. I mean, working with a charity like World Vision, like that’s huge, that almost has a whole range of different departments like a corporate organization may, but then a lot of the charities I’ve worked with are quite small. So that’s another big difference in that you won’t have all the departments that you may in the corporate world. So you may find that if you’re working in the corporate world, that you may work within a PR team and have some PR people to be able to bounce ideas off but in the charity, you may be the only PR person which means that you probably want to have support outside of the organization when it comes to PR if you’re sort of having challenges around something and want some someone to help you. So there are definitely differences but it depends on what the organization is and how large they are. And yeah, the other thing that can come up with charities is that they’ll often have boards and you sometimes have to get approval through boards and then approval through management. And that can also sometimes lead to a few challenges when it comes to getting things approved or ideas accepted. So yeah, they would be the things that I found.

Leah Lambart 31:54
Yeah, that’s interesting. It sounds like you need quite good, strong influencing skills in that environment.

Katie Maynes 31:59
I think that is the reason why I really do love charities and the reason why I’ve ended up predominantly working with them is that for me, when it comes to PR and you’re selling a story, and you want to really believe in that story and believe in that product, and it’s easy to do if you’re working for a charity. And so I think that is actually one of the big reasons why I do work with charities. And as I get older, I do find it’s harder to sell something that you may not be convinced or excited about yourself. So that’s, I think, a really great benefit of working for a charity that you’re working for an amazing thing and the team is all coming together for the same cause. I’ve worked with the Asylum Seeker Resource Centre on their telethon for a few years. And it’s just beautiful seeing everyone come together for that. And there’s no one in that team who wouldn’t want to be putting in 100% because we all really want to see the results and see them get a whole lot of money. And so, yeah, I think that’s a really great thing about charities and not for profit.

Leah Lambart 32:01
It’s a really interesting point. Because, at the end of the day, from what you’re telling me, PR is almost like sales, and you have to put yourself out there to get across what you are trying to pitch. And so I guess it’s interesting being an introvert as well, that often selling doesn’t come as naturally to an introvert. So I think, that’s even more reason why you need to be really passionate or really interested in what you’re trying to get across.

Katie Maynes 33:50
Oh, yeah, that’s exactly right Leah. And I think that’s how I felt and it’s probably the part of the role that I’ve struggled with the most over the years is the selling. The roles I’ve been in like, say Australia Zoo, there wasn’t much selling as it was more media management because media were coming to you. I probably prefer those roles than the ones where it was more trying to get the media, although with charities, that’s what it has been. But I haven’t minded because yeah, I’ve really supported the cause and I’ve really had a huge motivation to make it happen. And yeah, the payoff of when you get coverage is really beautiful and great. So yeah, definitely agree.

Leah Lambart 34:34
Now, Katie, I want to talk to you about your own business, Katie Maynes PR. Can you tell us a little bit about what you’re currently doing and who you help. I know you’re working with international charities, but can you also share how you help entrepreneurs who are a little bit spotlight shy?

Katie Maynes 34:49
Yes, sure. So I started my business about four years ago now and I actually started it because I’d had my daughter and I was kind of looking for more flexibility. That was probably the big driver at the time. And I didn’t really know how it would look. And so it really has this model of two services, as you said, I’ve got sort of two functions. One as a coach helping spotlight shy entrepreneurs, and the other consulting and helping predominantly charities. I have helped a few entrepreneurs as well and businesses. So the consulting side working with charities is mainly Media Relations. So helping them with big campaigns, as I mentioned, like the AsylumSeeker Resource Centre and Ovarian Cancer Research Foundation and just helping them get good coverage in the paper. So they get brand awareness and people see what they’re doing and hopefully they get more donors as a result of that. That’s really the main aim of that work. And it’s something that as I said, I enjoy it because I see the huge payoff in that and I also love telling the stories, there’s some really beautiful stories that come out of that. And yet, that’s something that really is a key driver for me. And then the other side of it, the coaching side came about because I was seeing a lot of people who had really amazing stories to tell, but just didn’t want to stand up and tell them. They alwasy seemed to be those people who were not just loud, those who were more confident and able to tell their story were getting all the air time. So that was the driver behind that and I do coaching around that. And I’ve been helping a lot of clients to start their own podcasts or launch their own books and write their books and then launch them and even just storytelling now because with online business scenarios, you know Leah, alot of it is about communicating, you know, even Instagram stories and Facebook Lives and things like that which terrifies a lot of us. So yeah, I really enjoy that side because I feel like it’s something that a lot of people struggle with myself included.

Leah Lambart 37:07
Yeah, and for anyone starting their own business, it’s all new unless you’ve got a marketing background yourself. It’s completely new.It’s been a very steep learning curve for me having to do my own social media and write blog posts and copy for the website. And it’s quite fun because you learn lots of new skills, but it’s all new.

Katie Maynes 37:30
So, so true. Yeah, it is. It is. It does take a lot of energy too, doesn’t it? I think the more you do it, the easier ait becomes, but yeah, you kind of always need to make it a practice within the business or a priority to make it happen.

Leah Lambart 37:47
That’s right. And so how can people find you Katie, if they’re looking for some help getting their story out there?

Katie Maynes 37:55
Yes. So, you can find me on my website. Which is www.KatieMaynes.com.au and as Leah said at the start, she was part of my course which was amazing “The PR Classroom”, some really great students in there who are learning how to do PR or how to get their stories out into the media, what makes a good story and how to tap into maybe some opportunities that are already there. So you can sign up to the waitlist on my website. You can also find me online or on social media, Instagram and Facebook.. And I also have a podcast which is called ‘Business Between Bells’, which is for parents building businesses between school drop off and pickup which we’re finally doing again, which is a great thing.

So yeah, so you can find me there. I haven’t been all that active, I must say on Instagram of late so I’ll have to get back into that myself.

Leah Lambart 38:54
Well, we’ve had all these little people around us who shouldn’t be at home.

Katie Maynes 39:00
We have. It’s funny because I’ve actually been doing a fair bit of Instagram for one of my clients. And I thought it’s so much easier when you’re doing it for someone else, you know, just pop things up. But it really is a good reminder to me that when you’re posting things, or you’re showing up and doing stories that there is, obviously this personal aspect and a lot. Yeah, a lot can go into that.

Leah Lambart 39:24
Hmm, it’s definitely putting yourself out there. And I look I find the writing and the audio is great, but the video for me is still a bit of a hurdle that I’m yet to overcome. So that’s a work in progress.

Katie Maynes 39:40
No, I’m the same, video is my least favorite too. But yeah, I think practice makes perfect.

Leah Lambart 39:46
That’s what they tell me. So look Katie, thank you so much. I’ve learnt so much from chatting to you today, and I’m sure everyone else has as well. So thanks again, best of luck for your business for the rest of the year. And I’ll Look forward to catching up with you again soon.